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Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon
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Posted - 2006.10.26 00:32:00 -
[1]
I see that the ECM's are nerfed, but the love is not yet on ECM ships.
When can we expect the boost? ----------------------------------------
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Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon
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Posted - 2006.10.26 19:40:00 -
[2]
They need to change the rook to 30% per level, Scorpion and Falcon to 25% per level, and blackbird to 20% per level.
That will fix everything up, and maybe remove a lowslot from the scorp so it cant armor tank so well, add a launcher slot maybe? ----------------------------------------
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Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity
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Posted - 2006.10.27 00:58:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Malicious Wraith on 27/10/2006 00:58:53
Originally by: Alexander Knott
Originally by: Malicious Wraith They need to change the rook to 30% per level, Scorpion and Falcon to 25% per level, and blackbird to 20% per level.
That will fix everything up, and maybe remove a lowslot from the scorp so it cant armor tank so well, add a launcher slot maybe?
Rook would need a 40% bonus per level to have the same jam strength at Recon 5. The others you got dead on.
My math would must be screwy then, we are talking 20% per level to offset the current half power they are given at level 5, plus the already existing 10% per level ontop of the 20% making it 30%.
Same logic I used on the other cruisers, and keep in mind this only provides equal jam strength payout at, and only at, level 5 in the ship skill listed.
30% x 5 = 150%, 100% to offset the -100%, and from the 10 percent to equal the 50% bonus currently in effect at level 5. ----------------------------------------
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Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity
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Posted - 2006.10.27 01:46:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Tuxford make jammers reletively more powerful on ECM ships
In order to have standard day jamming capabilities on the rook, I need to fit 5 ECM upgrades then.
The scorpion, having more low-slots, becomes the strongest jamming ship in the game as was not intended.
The rook is supposed to be the strongest jammer in the game, and even *With* the equal boosts making jamming strength equal to last jamming, and all low-slots spent on jamming increase, and with the ECM strength increase rig, it is still not as powerful as the scorpion.
Either way, this was only supposed to jam ships that could tank while using ECM, the rook is not one of them unless it sacrifices lots of jam power in the form of mid slots.
Then its running a half-arsed jamming/tanking mode. ----------------------------------------
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Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity
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Posted - 2006.10.27 01:59:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Malicious Wraith
Originally by: Tuxford make jammers reletively more powerful on ECM ships
In order to have standard day jamming capabilities on the rook, I need to fit 5 ECM upgrades then.
That's not true. You can also increase jamming strength with rigs.
Thats gimping it compared to everything else, you can upgrade most anything with rigs.
Leave jamming out just because someone feels like it?
How about we leave blasters out of rig damage bonuses, they dont need any more damage increase then they already have!
Get my point? ----------------------------------------
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Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity
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Posted - 2006.10.27 19:30:00 -
[6]
On the topic of Scorpion versus Rook discussion,
Scorpion has 8 mid slots, 8 possible jammers.
Rook has 7 mid slots, 7 possible jammers.
Scorpion has a 5% boost per level to ECM, for a maximum for 25% at level 5.
Rook has a 10% boost per level to ecm, for a maximum for 50% at level 5.
Each rook jammer is 25% more powerful then each scorpion jammer.
7x25% = 175% percent.
Rook has "Effectively" 1 and 3/4's more jammers then the scorpion.
Making the "Effective Jamming Strength" of the rook 9.75 in relative comparison to the scorpions 8.
Thank you, good day ^.-
Keep in mind that the rook is in no way overpowered, it lacks low slots for an effective tank, and has small amounts of damage.
Insta-popped by any decent bs-size damage, and any group of t2 drones can effectively bring it out of the battle. ----------------------------------------
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Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity
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Posted - 2006.10.27 20:02:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Malicious Wraith on 27/10/2006 20:04:52
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
Originally by: Malicious Wraith
My math would must be screwy then, we are talking 20% per level to offset the current half power they are given at level 5, plus the already existing 10% per level ontop of the 20% making it 30%.
Same logic I used on the other cruisers, and keep in mind this only provides equal jam strength payout at, and only at, level 5 in the ship skill listed.
30% x 5 = 150%, 100% to offset the -100%, and from the 10 percent to equal the 50% bonus currently in effect at level 5.
Your math IS screwy. Take 100 as the original value. Now the new value is 50% of the old one, right? So the new value is 50%.
100x(100%+5x10%=150%)= 100x1.5=150. 50x(100%+5x30%=250%)=50x2.5=125. When you halve the original value the boost per percentage is also halved. So if the original value is halved it needs a 200% total bonus to match the original 50% bonus, thus 40% per level.
Aha, yes. My mistake. *doh*
Hehe
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Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity
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Posted - 2006.10.27 21:51:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Malicious Wraith on 27/10/2006 21:52:28
Originally by: miss sixtty
Originally by: Alexander Knott Edited by: Alexander Knott on 27/10/2006 21:10:35 Actually, what's more troubling is that apparently the Rook got bumped to 20% strength/level, which is nowhere near good enough. With that bonus and maxed skills, a Rook will be about as good at jamming as a Blackbird is today.
I'd actually feel better about the ECM ships if they had not received their new bonuses yet. At least that way I could tell myself "well, maybe they just haven't gotten to it yet." Instead it seems like they have gotten to it, but the new bonus just isn't nearly good enough.
Edit: I should have said the bonus for the Rook is in effect, but isn't in the description. Of course, I haven't been able to get on Sisi to see if this is actually true or just forum hearsay.
You ask why ECM ships are being nerfed? Well, its pretty simply: becouse only Caldary have ECM ships. That pretty unfair to other races, no? Even in current "nerfed" SiSi state caldary ewar ships are much better (TOO MUCH better) than other races ships. I mean, gallente ewar ships have a wooping 5% pre lvl increase in sensor dampeners, and matari 5% for TP, lol. As such, tracking disruptors, dampeners and TP can be used by any race effectivly, and ECM only by select caldary ships. Thats where the root of the problem. Personally, i would like to LOWER racial bonus on caldary ewar ships to same 5% but increase the importance of low-slot ECM-aiding modules. That would allow any ship to take ECM role if needed, at expence of damage and tanking.
ECM is a completely different module then the others listed, and you saying that "Because sensor dampeners are so and so", does not mean that it applies to ECM just because it shares the "Electronic Warfare" title.
Curse gets nosferatu bonuses, Huginn gets webifier bonuses, Arazu gets scrambler bonuses, Rook gets ECM bonuses.
Curse strength = 20% increase to nosferatu amount per level, 40% increase to range.
Huginn = 60% Bonus to stasis webification range per level.
Arazu = 20% bonus to warp disruption range per level.
Rook = 10% increase in ECM amount per level.
ECM on a pre-kali rook is *not* overpowered, but a good arguement can be made that ECM on a pre-kali ship other then the rook/blackbird can indeed becoming overpowered due to tankage+damage that can be acheived while simultaneously running the ECM.
I propose, and suggest, that the rook gets its pre-kali jam strength put into effect via a 40% bonus per level to ECM strength. Rooks have never been the problem with ECM. They have basically *no* tank and are easily countered. Indeed it is the easiest to kill of all Recon ships, and has cap problems without the best of all setups.
Thank you for your time, Malicious Wraith
(This post here is more about the Falcon/Rook/BB then the Scorpion. The scorpion is indeed a strange phenomena being an "E-War" battleship, able to use electronic warfare will still having the BS sized tanks is a bit overpowered.) ----------------------------------------
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Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity
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Posted - 2006.10.28 14:32:00 -
[9]
Bump ----------------------------------------
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Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity
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Posted - 2006.10.28 15:19:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kipkruide well they did want to nerf it, that means it will be worse then before. :), not as good as. ccp always overnerfs first.
Problem always was ships like domi's/tempest's using ECM's, never the ECM ships.
Rook *needs* its ecm strength. ----------------------------------------
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Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity
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Posted - 2006.10.28 17:47:00 -
[11]
Originally by: AsiaFury there goes the neighborhood. Almost every caldari/gallente/amarr fitting i have has an ecm on it, so i dont see how some are saying its a caldari problem. Now however, it is a caldari problem, the caldari ships have been nerfed into uselessness while every other race just gets to add a new midslot toy.
This is not a racial thing, its more a rook/blackbird/falcon problem then anything else. ----------------------------------------
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Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity
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Posted - 2006.10.29 00:20:00 -
[12]
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Malicious Wraith
Originally by: AsiaFury there goes the neighborhood. Almost every caldari/gallente/amarr fitting i have has an ecm on it, so i dont see how some are saying its a caldari problem. Now however, it is a caldari problem, the caldari ships have been nerfed into uselessness while every other race just gets to add a new midslot toy.
This is not a racial thing, its more a rook/blackbird/falcon problem then anything else.
It's not over nerfed. And all the EW ships still have *PLENTY* of ECM strength when used with the ECM booster mods. One Blackbird with two booster mods jammed my Megathron about 90% of the time with two racial jammers. That seems pretty effective do me, don't you think?
I dont care what "That blackbird" did,
I care about statistics, actual numbers.
Even with "The mods' on, you are completely limiting the ships mentioned above.
Im asking for one thing:
"Reinstate ECM DEDICATED ships old strength"
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Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity
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Posted - 2006.10.29 18:49:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Lucian Corvinus Well all the other racial ew modules are not chance based. Take a sensor dampered ew ship, fit a couple of sensor dampers and stay just out of lock range, that way you will keep your target locked down forever. The same is not possible with a rook for instance. As soon as you lose a jam cycle, you will end up dead vs. a battleship.
A chance based system is not comparable to a non chance based system in my eyes.
the ecm-based ship should stay in their current form on TQ and srew the low slot modules imo
QFT ----------------------------------------
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Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity
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Posted - 2006.10.29 23:33:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Alexander Knott I will say that I find it puzzling that ECM ships are required to give up low slots to maintain their jamming strength since these slots have traditionally been used to keep ECM ships from popping instantly when they come under fire. I would have much preferred an option that sacrificed offensive power. Someone mentioned simply making ECM modules take high slots, which I thought was a fairly nifty idea.
That is a much better idea.
Even with the low slots for stopping them from popping instantly it is still *very* easy to pop them though.
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Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity
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Posted - 2006.10.30 21:09:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Malicious Wraith on 30/10/2006 21:11:09 ECM is ballanced currently on jamming ships because:
ECCM makes a ship *extremely* hard to jam. It is the only counter EW mod which actually is that effective besides warp core stabs.
ECM is chanced based.
ECM takes alot of capacitor.
ECM Ships dont have the extra capacitor to use cap heavy mods... armor reps.. etc etc during fights.
ECM modules were primarily used by other recon's not because it is more powerful, but because they use it in conjunction with their normal bonus. Effectively allowing them to use "2 recon bonuses", Because the EW bonuses on ECM ships are non-existant (Blackbird), or low (Scorpion, falcon), allowing them to use them almost as effectively as a Scorpion/Falcon and equally as effectively as a BB.
This can be solved by, as they are doing now, lowering the powers of ECM's and increasing the bonuses of the ECM ships, to allow them to have a strength equal to what it is now on tranquility.
The current state of ECM specialized ships is not overpowered, with the possible exception of the scorpion, and no matter what other fits you see common day use on Non-ECM Ships, that does not change this fact.
ECM ships that want to put a plate, sacrifice their damage in order to fit a tank, and have crap for damage. They are basically full support ships that cant fight for themselves. If need be, nerf the powergrid/Hardpoint's (Missile Slots) of the ECM ships to show this. ECM ships have always been fun, because they are some of the few ships that are "Full support, General combat".
Anything else?
Edit: Updated original post to reflect this post. ----------------------------------------
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Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity
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Posted - 2006.11.01 01:59:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Malicious Wraith on 01/11/2006 01:59:00 Its gimped beyond control... which is ok, but not for ECM dedicated ships.
Let ECM dedicated ships operate in Kali as they do now is all we ask.
Not overpowered, with the possible exception of the scorpion. ----------------------------------------
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Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity
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Posted - 2006.11.03 21:08:00 -
[17]
A rook running ECM boost modules will still not have the same effectiveness as on TQ Currently. ----------------------------------------
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Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity
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Posted - 2006.11.03 23:23:00 -
[18]
Originally by: tAkErPT I believe in order to make ECM a little more fair it should be like "Small, medium and Large ECM modules" this would be enought to make it fair and not having an inty jamming a Battleship and not making a scorpion completly unuseful
Only if the rook is then treated like other recon's, and its jammers become superior to all others with the inclusion of large. ----------------------------------------
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Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity
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Posted - 2006.11.04 16:38:00 -
[19]
Originally by: lordferatu i think the answer to the problem is quite simple and has already been outlined by other posters in this thread:
- boost the bonuses on ECM dedicated ships enough to cancel out the ECM nerf - forget about the low slot ECM strength module
this way dedicated ECM ships will have the exact same strength as they have now on TQ and can keep the same setup as they are currently using. otherwise ships with lots of low slots will be able to achieve higher jamming strengths than the dedicated ships which is just ridiculous.
if the ECM dedicated ships have to change their low slot layout to get the same strength as they currently have then this is totally unbalanced. the fact that the scorp could potentially get a better jamming strength that the rook because it has more low slots to fit the new module seems stupid to me.
if the changes to ECM reach tranquility in any way other than the one i have outlined you can be sure that you will all be hearing a lot more from me on this subject.
(in reference to rigs i am not sure how these would work along side the ideas i have stated as i think they should also not be required to achieve current jammer strength but shouldn't boost it much either on dedicated ships or this too would be unbalanced)
Agreed ----------------------------------------
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Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity
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Posted - 2006.11.06 00:27:00 -
[20]
Shameless bump. ----------------------------------------
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Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity
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Posted - 2006.11.07 02:49:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Trillian Mcmillan /bump /signed
Dedicated ECM ships are not overpowered. They are the ultimate support ship. And go fine with the whole cladari race, which is generally defined as a support race (long rng, low dmg, powerfull ewar). Nerf ECM but dont nerf ECM dedicated ships.
If you must reduce their ECM effectiveness, boost other aspects of them please. Becouse without ECM they are quite useless.
A Scorp, a BB, a Falcon or a Rook ( or even a Griffin you wish) are awsome when used in gangs. Solo they present little to no threat. As such they should be very effective when flying support.
QFT, Exactly what we use our Jamming ships for.
Full support.
Dont make eve become a "I shoot you harder and faster" "No! I shoot you harder and faster!!". ----------------------------------------
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Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity
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Posted - 2006.11.08 22:09:00 -
[22]
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Malicious Wraith
Originally by: Trillian Mcmillan /bump /signed
Dedicated ECM ships are not overpowered. They are the ultimate support ship. And go fine with the whole cladari race, which is generally defined as a support race (long rng, low dmg, powerfull ewar). Nerf ECM but dont nerf ECM dedicated ships.
If you must reduce their ECM effectiveness, boost other aspects of them please. Becouse without ECM they are quite useless.
A Scorp, a BB, a Falcon or a Rook ( or even a Griffin you wish) are awsome when used in gangs. Solo they present little to no threat. As such they should be very effective when flying support.
QFT, Exactly what we use our Jamming ships for.
Full support.
Dont make eve become a "I shoot you harder and faster" "No! I shoot you harder and faster!!".
ECM still need to be nerfed. ECM *SHIPS* still need to be nerfed. Blackbirds jamming Moros on test? HELLO? My buddy went to FFA1 and shut down EVERY SHIP THERE with his Rook. All by himself. Two HACs, two BS, a BC and a Dread. You don't think this is just a LITTLE overpowered? And he's not even using the ECM strength rigs yet.
Oooo, I am sure that you and your blackbird go around and own up everyone left and right.
Little "War Stories" Dont hold weight when it comes to the topic of nerfing an entire facet of the game. ----------------------------------------
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Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity
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Posted - 2006.11.08 22:57:00 -
[23]
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Malicious Wraith
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Malicious Wraith
Originally by: Trillian Mcmillan /bump /signed
Dedicated ECM ships are not overpowered. They are the ultimate support ship. And go fine with the whole cladari race, which is generally defined as a support race (long rng, low dmg, powerfull ewar). Nerf ECM but dont nerf ECM dedicated ships.
If you must reduce their ECM effectiveness, boost other aspects of them please. Becouse without ECM they are quite useless.
A Scorp, a BB, a Falcon or a Rook ( or even a Griffin you wish) are awsome when used in gangs. Solo they present little to no threat. As such they should be very effective when flying support.
QFT, Exactly what we use our Jamming ships for.
Full support.
Dont make eve become a "I shoot you harder and faster" "No! I shoot you harder and faster!!".
ECM still need to be nerfed. ECM *SHIPS* still need to be nerfed. Blackbirds jamming Moros on test? HELLO? My buddy went to FFA1 and shut down EVERY SHIP THERE with his Rook. All by himself. Two HACs, two BS, a BC and a Dread. You don't think this is just a LITTLE overpowered? And he's not even using the ECM strength rigs yet.
Oooo, I am sure that you and your blackbird go around and own up everyone left and right.
Little "War Stories" Dont hold weight when it comes to the topic of nerfing an entire facet of the game.
You're right. A year of dealing with ECM's broken game play on Tranq holds some weight however.
ECM needs a 50% reduction in effectiveness across the board. For everything. As it sits with Kali, ECM actually have a higher peak effectiveness with the correct combination of rigs and modules than they ever did on Tranq.
This is clearly a step in the wrong direction.
We dont want the higher peak, we just want ECM ships to remain unchanged from RMR to kali. ----------------------------------------
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Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity
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Posted - 2006.11.11 18:20:00 -
[24]
Just give ECM ships their RMR strength, remove their usage of ECM boost modules, keep the Revelations gimped ECM for all other ships and viola.
Instant fun. ----------------------------------------
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Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity
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Posted - 2006.11.12 22:19:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Lenaria Edited by: Lenaria on 12/11/2006 07:26:26 ECM rigs & low slot modules on the ECM ships with ECM bonuses like Rook or Scorpion make the ECM the most unbalanced thing on the SiSi. Yes, its way worse than even Drake or Rokh. And its totally unfair in respect to other races EW.
Just remove the darn ECM mods, even the rigs if you put ECM at its current RMR state onto the modifiers of the ships. ----------------------------------------
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